
I was just listening to one of the podcasts I subscribe to, Gamers Lounge, and there was a little bit of discussion around Malifaux's new book, Rising Powers, specifically regarding the power level of that book in comparison to Malifaux's first book. One of the hosts suggested that the new book's power level, particularly with the new masters, was higher than that of the first book with the exception of a few of the masters (Perdita, Lady Justice and Lilith being the three mentioned). I had a differing opinion, so I figured I'd take some time to talk about what my feelings of Rising Power are.
I took some time trying to formulate the reason I disagree with this point. I'm going to start with the easy part: the minions. I know this isn't specifically what was mentioned in the podcast, but it is part of the whole question as to whether the new book is that much greater than the old. My primary experience is with Neverborn, so I'll be concentrating there mostly, but having talked with another of my friends who plays Ressurectionists, he's of the same opinion.
There are plenty of models in the first book that I believe are on a level with or better than those in the second book. Mature Nephilim are still the Neverborn's king of dealing damage. Terror Tots are still among the best point-for-effectiveness models in the game. Their speed, their triggers, and their defense all make them incredibly good at getting to points and holding them, or coming in to finish off an enemy. Their ability to grow into Younger Nephilim and become models that are worth double their points is solid.
The Doppelganger, the Waldgeists, and the Slurids are all very good models, as are Baby Kade and Candy in their specific roles. Teddy is a hard to hurt heavy-hitter, owning one of the most impressive damage lines in the game (3/5/10) when he gets his teeth on you.
Rising Power likewise has a lot of fantastic choices. Lilu and Lilitu fit easily into a lot of the builds for Neverborn. Coppulus is just frightening. On the lower point level, Alps are a great swarm monster, and Insidious Madness gives us some nice support.
I think where I finally came down to in comparing the two books on the minions level is this: there is very little difference between the top of the class in book one and the top of the class in book two. But the bottom of the class of book two is better than the bottom of the class of book one. What I mean by that is there are a few models in book one I just don't like. Bad Juju. Sorrows. The Hooded Rider has yet to show me he's good. I don't feel like there's anything in Rising Powers that's that bad. As such, I can look through Rising Powers and be be wow-ed by everything in it, but can't do the same for book one. To me, that just shows that they've figured out how to not make crap models anymore.

Moving on to the masters, which is where the crux of the conversation was, I'm still not convinced that they are more powerful than the original models. These models are not more powerful, they're simply working differently than any other master has before. In Neverborn, we had a caster who was fast and attacked in melee (Lilith), a master who attacked willpower (Pandora) and another who makes your enemy's models attack each other (Zoraida). But in all of these, there were other masters in other factions who did similar things. Lady Justice attacked melee. Ressurectionists could create builds that would attack willpower (with terror and willpower-reducing effects).
In Rising Powers, each of the masters is drastically different than other things that have been presented. The soulstone manipulation of Collette is unseen before. The burying/unburying effects of the Dreamer are all new. Hamelin's crew utilizes dying and reviving rats, Kirai uses an entire army of Spirits with lots of movement, healing and summoning, and Hoffman can push his minions differently than we've ever seen before.
But I don't believe they're more powerful. I just believe they're different.
Any time you face a player who is using a master they understand decently well and that you've never seen before, they're going to pull tricks on you that will make you cry foul. I've done it myself. First time I faced Nicodem, he blased a melee I was in with a spell that hurt all my people and healed all his. WTF?! I faced Seamus with his Copycat Killer and saw the massive damage their guns could do. Other people who haven't seen Obey before will face Zoraida and scream broken when their own model smashes their master for half his life on turn one.
But the more people play against these masters, the more people realize how to stop them. If you don't want to be Obeyed, deploy differently. If you don't want a massive gun to the face, kill the Copycat fast even though he's only two points. Stop the Vultures and limit Nicodem's spell casting. All of these lessons come from playing games, and there are lessons for dealing with the new masters too. They just come in time. I'd expect that in several months, these new masters will be right along with the old, once everyone learns their tricks.

I (the aformentioned resser player) Tend to agree. The first game I faced off with Dreamer I wanted to punch a baby. And after I got kick out of the maternity ward I tried facing him again. He still gives me fits, but I have also figured out good ways around his lists. Collette is very similar in my eyes. Each time she pops a model off the board who has full health I grind my teeth in frustration. Then I turn that frustration into ass-kickery and proceed to whup up on her. Hamelin will be the next big model to come out that has people crying Broken (I'll be with them) But once we get past the infinity Rats; I know you will find a squishy crew reliant on its master to work
ReplyDeleteOkay, you guys are off point a bit for what I was saying (I am the podcaster).
ReplyDeleteRight now the masters from book 1 (really their full crews) are weaker with a few exceptions then the Masters and Henchman from book 2 (including their crews) that have currently release models when playing in the current meta environment.
For starters, Masters and their crews from book 1 are balanced to play against Masters and Henchmen and their crews from book 2 when including currently unreleased models from book 2, and not just with book 1 models. Without these non-released models, book 1 crews for the most part can not compete against the released book 2 crews and have an even chance of winning.
Lilith's crew is the first to get some of its additional models from book 2 not specifically associated with a new Crew box, which is beginning to change this fact (though I would have put Lilith's crew into the exception of crews from book 1 that could match the released book 2 crews).
At this point, playing Kiria as Dan did all 4 rounds was an advantage (nothing wrong with it) unless he ran up against another player using one of the other released Book 2 crews or Lilith's, Perdita's, or Lady Justice's crews from book 1 in my opinion.
Well why didn't you say that in the podcast then?! :)
ReplyDeleteInteresting point, though. Of course it means the game can never be balanced except for the brief moment when everything in one book is released and the next book is not available. So far, that moment has never happened - the models of the first book were not finished being released until after the second book started, and from the rumors of how soon the third book is coming out, it will be released before the second book is finished.
Maybe what we should take from this is that a single tournament cannot show who are the powerful crews. Rather we'd have to look at the results of multiple tournaments over time and see if we can find any common trends. Theoretically, as new models are released, different crews rise and fall in power levels. Perhaps each crew should be spending its time near the top at some point, and then that crew should be winning the tournaments.
It sounds like the current crews you believe should be winning would be Kirai and Collette, as both of them have the most models available from book 2 to their play style. Dreamer should catch up this month with Alps and Daydreams coming out. Lilith is still missing two key components to her new style - Nekima and the Blood Shaman.
In the end, though, having a good crew is not going to equate to tournament wins. There has to be an understanding behind how the models work, and a good player at the helm. I do believe that, even now, any crew played well can beat any other crew.
But I personally do not think that Collette and Kirai + crew are any better then the book 1 masters + crew. I will agree that there are pieces from Book 2 that will make everyone better. Doves and Lost Love are seriously lacking for Kirai and Collette. McMourning needs the Rouge Necro. But I still think Masters like Sonia Criid, Rasputina, Leviticus, Seamus, and Vickis plus their standard crews are on equal footing with the current Book 2 released Masters + crews. I am honstly worried about the Dreamer since almost all of his toys plus his Totem (VERY BITTER) will be released within this month. And I do understand your point of view more clearly now, I just think our opinions are different. Also I think any advantage I might have had in the tournament was offset by the fact that my opponents saw my list and tailored theirs to beat it. Such as Rocketts list which had 5 models with magic weapons and Criid.
ReplyDeleteI forgot that the Lost Love and Doves weren't out yet - both of those are clutch for their crews. Those crews were balanced against the book 1 crews with those models at their disposal - without them, they're playing at a disadvantage too.
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